In this episode, Audio Editor Rhea Chowdhary sat down with Senior News Reporter Catherine MacLeod and General News Reporter Tierney Withrow as they explained the controversies surrounding podcaster Myron Gaines’ visit to UT on Oct. 7 and what students are advocating for in response.
Narrated and edited by Rhea Chowdhary. Cover photo by Isaiah Rodriguez. Music by Blue Dot Sessions. The clip used from the event can be found on Uncensored America and MyronGainesX on YouTube.
[Intro music]
Chowdhary: My name is Rhea Chowdhary, and I’m the Audio Editor for The Daily Texan. “The Texan Explains” is a weekly news podcast featuring reporters from the news department explaining the biggest stories that are impacting students at the moment.
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Withrow: I’m Tierney Withrow and I’m a general news reporter.
MacLeod: And my name is Catherine MacLeod. I’m a senior news reporter and I have the Student Government beat.
Chowdhary: So first of all, can you kind of explain what in general is going on, who Myron Gaines is and what events sparked this?
Withrow: Yes. So Myron Gaines is a conservative podcaster. He also wrote a book, “Why Women Deserve Less.” And, he was invited by Uncensored America’s, like, UT chapter of Uncensored America, on campus, um, as a guest speaker. They reserved the area right outside of (Gregory) Gym. And they, um- he had kind of the debate-style, um, kind of thing. He had a sign up that said, “The Cornell Seven are innocent, prove me wrong,” and invited students to come up to the microphone and debate him. After a few hours, a crowd of students started to go around him and watch the event. And, um, towards the end- throughout the event, Myron Gaines said some slurs, um, that were homophobic and racist and some other derogatory terms towards, like, women. And, um, towards the end, uh, he got a, according to the video, um, that was published by Uncensored America, he got a warning by a University staff member to stop use of slurs. And then he said a slur in response to that. And, um, he debated one more student. And that student also said, um, a racial slur multiple times before the event was shut down by (University of Texas Police Department).
[Gaines speaking]
Chowdhary: From this event, what groups were specifically affected? And then were any groups kind of created in response to the event?
MacLeod: So, the slurs that Myron Gaines was using were largely focused on African American students and women. And so, I was at the Student Government meeting last Tuesday, and the response was largely from the African American community at UT. These were students who were just- just really identified or felt largely affected by what he said. And other students who were either in, like, Divine Nine sororities and fraternities, historically black sororities and fraternities, and other, um, black student (organizations) on campus. And so I think they really came together after what happened. I spoke to one student who told me, you know, ‘When one person in our community is affected, we’re all affected.’ And so, they all thought it was really important to come together in the face of this adversity and this discrimination, and stand up and say something that they thought was really important and thought needed to be heard.
Chowdhary: Yeah, and then kind of going off of just like, what they said as Student Government, can you- can you kind of explain what an open forum is? And then, what exactly they were saying at this open forum?
MacLeod: Yeah, so, Student Government meetings, um, they follow, like, a very official meeting structure. Minutes are kept, um, everything goes through a process of motions. It’s very similar to the way a lot of other official meetings, like city council meetings, run. But at Student Government meetings, there is an official time allocated for what is called “open forum.” And that is an opportunity for members of the UT community, whether that’s student, staff, faculty, um, anything like that, they can sign up either in advance, or they can come to the public assembly meeting and scan a QR code to speak directly to representatives in the Student Government, either presenting an idea for legislation, or voicing a concern that they might have or maybe ask a question to student government. ‘How does this work?’ ‘Why haven’t you done this?’ ‘Why did you do this?’ Something like that.
Chowdhary: And so what was the response from Student Government to these students that were bringing up, um, their feelings towards what happened with meetings?
MacLeod: I think overall, Student Government likes people to speak during open forum. I think it’s kind of why they sign up to do that job: to hear from people that are affected by the decisions that they make. I will say, some people who spoke at the meeting were not happy with Student Government’s response. There was only one student who asked a question, because there’s- it’s basically open forum is Q&A style. So they have a certain amount of time- I want to say two minutes to just speak, basically give a speech, and then three minutes Q&A. There was only one student representative who asked a question to any of the students who spoke.
Chowdhary: And, um, did, like, the president and vice president of Student Government, like, respond to them directly, and what was their response to them?
MacLeod: So they didn’t necessarily respond directly, but part of the structure of the Student Government meeting is, after open forum, there are committee reports. So, each committees, there are a bunch of committees within Student Government: academic affairs, economic affairs, stuff like that- but just kind of make sure all these different operations are running smoothly. And so the executive board or, like, the executive alliance, they’re part of that. They have a section at every meeting that they can kind of give a report. ‘This is what we’ve been working on this last week,’ whatever. And, during their report at this meeting, because a lot of students who either signed up for open forum and weren’t able to speak, or the students who did sign up for open forum but didn’t feel like they were able to speak as much as they wanted to, they remained in the room. So both (SG President) Kiera (Dixon) and (SG Vice President) Jaden (Watt), the executive alliance, um, referred to that group during their report and said, ‘First we want to start off saying, thank you for coming. We appreciate your, um, concerns, and we appreciate you coming here.’ They both just seemed very appreciative that these concerns were being voiced to the Student Government, and that they brought, like, actual ideas for legislation to be formed.
Chowdhary: Okay, and then kind of just going off of what has been going on with free speech and, like, um, people coming, speakers coming to campus to speak, and people being kind of bothered by that, have you seen other instances like this in the past? Maybe if that’s been this year or in the past years that kind of went into maybe your research for your story?
MacLeod: Definitely yes. Free speech is always something that’s going to be talked about on college campuses. College campuses are really popular locations for political figures and political commentators to come speak because they’re trying to get the college student demographic involved. From my experience, the year before I came in, um, there was a pro-Palestine protest on campus that resulted in multiple students being suspended, and there were multiple lawsuits that resulted from that because people thought they were wrongfully suspended, and that- um, one of those lawsuits has actually just kind of come to a head, and a judge sided with the University and said that they were allowed to suspend that student, so that’s something that’s been discussed a lot. Another thing, I, through my role as a reporter with the Texan, attended both events for, hosted by University Democrats and Turning Point USA, the UT chapter, and that was, um, Hasan Piker, who’s a, um, liberal, um, political commentator, and then Ben Shapiro and some other conservative political commentators. And, that also raised some maybe concerns from people within the University because University Democrats had a lot of people register for the Hasan Piker event, and it was over 3,000, and the original venue that they had booked was in the (William C. Powers, Jr. Student Activity Center), and it couldn’t fit enough people. And they applied to use Hogg Auditorium, which is a much larger space, and were denied, and there were some concerns voiced that it was trying to silence the speaker. Hasan Piker did end up coming to campus, it was just they had to return some, uh, student RSVPs, so not as many people who signed up were able to go. But, um, yeah, I will say there have definitely been a lot of concerns voiced, and obviously Jim Davis did respond and send an email, and it was pretty, um, broad, just saying, ‘This is the policy we have in place, don’t engage with speakers that are maybe yelling slurs at you.’ That was just kind of his response. But Tierney if you have anything to say about that.
Withrow: Not particularly. I do know Reawaken USA, which is a similar style of debate, um, as Uncensored America, has tabled right outside of Jester dorms, um, near the plaza, um, at least twice that I’ve seen, um, since Uncensored America was here, so one of them was actually here last night, so there are still these, um, conservative kind of debate style commentators coming onto campus, and this is still continuing, um,and still around the same area, um, since the Uncensored (America) event.
Chowdhary: Yeah, and I feel like especially with this event, a lot of what the concerns have been about have been centered around, you know, just safety on just the premise of, like, bringing a speaker to campus. Can y’all kind of talk about why people are so concerned about the fact that these speakers are coming to campus, and why that might make people feel unsafe?
Withrow: So I was actually walking home from the, like, OU, UT rally. I was walking back to my dorm when I heard, um, some yelling, um, back and forth between a student and someone else, so I, like a lot of other students, um, walked over to where Uncensored America was and saw it for a second, and, um, it was- there was a lot of yelling, a lot of shouting, um, just in the time that I was there, and then afterwards when I watched the video, um, there were some safety concerns, um, just because the crowd was like, you know, a lot of students were very angry, um, and, um, while I was there, a student was, um, kind of moved back a little bit by, um, Gaines’s security team, um, while he was debating and arguing with Gaines. So on like a physical security level, there’s that, um, and then on a safety, uh, kind of thing, um, a lot of students- I know a lot of students felt unsafe when they were- I mean that’s kind of what the response that happened, um, but a lot of students felt unsafe because there were a lot of students walking home back to their dorms after a campus-wide event, um, who walked by this on their way and heard some derogatory terms that could have been directed towards them, um, so I think that more plays into the response if you want to add anything to that.
MacLeod: Yeah, one thing that some of the students who spoke at the Student Government meeting mentioned was a lot of them lived in Jester, um, and just being in the Jester dorms, they could hear the event happening, they could hear people getting closer and closer to their dorms, and they felt just uncomfortable with the amount of people and the class of people, that- like people who are adults, aren’t affiliated with the University, especially who are saying inflammatory comments, um, people who are basically in the space that they live, like in Jester and these dorms. I feel like after dark was another thing that this was happening after dark, that they didn’t feel comfortable with somebody of that nature being so close to the place that they live. I know that there was sort of like a movement of people, I think, when the event was ended abruptly, all like sort of at- there were a lot of people there I know, so they were all kind of moving in what was described as like a horde, which obviously could be really intimidating. Also, a lot of these conservative organizations, I mean and liberal organizations as well, are very provocative intentionally, um, and one thing we have seen happening in the last week or so with Reawaken USA is this intentional open carry of a firearm, which, um, is not allowed on UT’s campus, and so there was somebody with Reawaken USA who was removed for that reason. Obviously, UT, historically, um, was subject to, like, an extremely deadly and horrific, uh, shooting. So I think there’s a lot of, um, memory on the campus regarding that, so I think anything regarding firearms on campus is obviously a concern as well.
Withrow: Yeah, I think, um, I forgot to mention this but this could be relevant. According to the video, uh, posted by Uncensored (America) again, um, when UTPD asked members of Uncensored (America) to leave campus, um, a lot of them at first refused, um, and UTPD, um, told them they were trespassing and would be arrested if they didn’t leave the premises, um, and there was a little bit of a pushback from both parties about leaving campus or not, um, so that could also be a concern of, you know, once things do get to a point where people have to leave, um, is that going to happen safely? And after the event concluded and Uncensored America left, yeah, a horde of students were walking and yelling and following, um, Gaines and his security team out. I saw on social media a video of that, um, so yeah, there was a horde of students as well, so there are a couple of different safety concerns that go in with this.
MacLoed: Yeah, and we are, like, considered an open campus, so people who aren’t affiliated with UT are allowed to be on Speedway, on campus. I’m not 100% sure, like, the hours of that. I think they can kind of just be there, um, a lot. But there are students who maybe are walking from their friend’s dorm home, like, late at night, and personnel who aren’t affiliated with the University being on campus late at night in a place where you live, where you’re supposed to feel comfortable, I think is just concerning to some people.
Chowdhary: Yeah, and just to kind of clarify, can you explain what Uncensored America is? Like, is it an organization registered under UT or no? It’s just- what is it?
Withrow: So it’s a organization that, uh, students at UT have a chapter of, so there’s a chapter of Uncensored America here, but it is a, um, I think, national organization, um, that does, um, these kind of, like, tours, um, where political commentators or podcasters, etc. will go to college campuses that have a registered chapter there, um, and kind of have these debate forums. So Myron Gaines, um, has had a couple of events before UT, um, and I think a couple after as well on his tour. So it’s a national chapter, but UT does have a, um, chapter here, and that’s why these people were allowed on our campus. They were invited by the school chapter, um, so that’s why they were allowed to be here, and kind of the logistics of that on a university level.
MacLeod: Yeah, and I think the style of what Uncensored America does, I think for people to, like, maybe most easily understand it who aren’t familiar, it’s kind of like, I mean, I guess the most famous example is Charlie Kirk, like somebody who would go to college campuses and set up, you know, in a tent and set up a microphone and openly debate students or people, like, walking by, promoting specific issues or topics that are relevant to the social climate. And there are multiple organizations: Uncensored America, Reawaken USA, Turning Point (USA) doesn’t do it so much anymore, but they definitely did used to, that will just go to college campuses and just debate with students in this open space.
Chowdhary: And then kind of going back to President Davis’s response and his email that he sent out to students, did students feel like he addressed their concerns properly or what do you guys feel like on that?
MacLeod: I think a lot of students did not, um, just from responses that I’ve seen. I understand, like, especially working for a newspaper, we get a lot of (public relations) responses regarding politically charged issues just because a lot of these university positions are meant to be non-partisan and, um, just somebody who has that much responsibility, they don’t want to say something that’s going to get them in trouble. I think a lot of people wish that he maybe said something a little bit more personal, just considering how personal the issue was for a lot of people. I know I saw on Yik Yak people just saying, like, he basically, I know the (Texas) Travesty said something as well, like he- people felt that he was just telling them to essentially get over it. It is kind of a gray area because, I mean, I did a lot of personally looking into the University catalog and what is allowed and isn’t allowed on campus. The issue with this event specifically was that Myron Gaines was allowed to be on campus, um, and he did not have to be approved by the University. If they are somebody who is affiliated with an organization or invited by an organization, I think the free speech nature or the- the in the interest of free speech, the University basically just approves it if the security for the event is going to be safe and everything like that. So, I think what Jim Davis said in his response was, you know, ‘He was allowed to be here and unfortunately in the interest of free speech, you can’t control what some people say.’ And he was also removed for certain reasons and that’s something you can’t really anticipate. But I think people wanted a little bit more compassion because the big thing that he did say was, ‘If this happens to you, just don’t engage. Like, know in your heart that a person who is saying slurs at you is not in the right.’ In a debate, you shouldn’t be engaged or encouraged to not respond. When there are slurs involved, I think it’s a bigger issue.
Chowdhary: That’s kind of all of the questions I had. Just if there’s anything else that you feel like is important to what you want people to know about the story, about what’s going on on campus with this, um, feel free to just talk about it.
MacLeod: Yeah, the big thing about the story, um, that I wanted to focus on was that the students who went to speak at Student Government weren’t necessarily just complaining. They were voicing concerns, but the big thing is that they were presenting ideas for legislation. So they didn’t just say, ‘This shouldn’t have happened.’ They cited the University catalog, they cited what was allowed and what was not allowed, and how University policy should or should not be changed. And so some ideas that were discussed were maybe setting a time limit for- if speakers are on campus, they shouldn’t be allowed on campus after dark because people might feel unsafe. Or, oh, there is a rule, um, in the University catalog about amplified sound. So if you are within a certain distance of certain buildings, you can’t have a microphone or a really loud microphone because it’s disruptive. Because we’re an academic campus, like, people are studying, people are sleeping. So that was one thing that- that was happening at that event that was not allowed. Like, you can’t have amplified sound on Speedway because you’re close to dorms and academic buildings. So they brought that up. They had a bunch of other ideas. They just wanted either a statement from Jim Davis, because this had not yet been issued, or from Student Government in support or, um, condemning what Gaines did say. So I think it’s just a really good example of ways students can use their voice. And regardless of what people think about SG, um, or the whole situation, open forum is always an opportunity for people to, um, voice their concerns. And I think the role of the Student Government is to not use their own, like, personal opinions, but to hear those concerns and act on it.
Withrow: Yeah, I did want to touch a bit on some of the responses from the actual events. So, um, when the event was shut down, a lot of Uncensored (America) people working were talking about, ‘This is a violation of free speech. The University is a public institution.’ Gaines himself said this institution is publicly funded. ‘This shouldn’t be allowed. This is a violation of free speech. I’ll say what I want,’ that kind of thing. And then in the days following the event, um, chapters for Students of a Democratic Society and the Black Student Alliance both posted statements, um, criticizing Gaines’ behavior. This was before, um, the student council meeting. And Gaines’, um, or Uncensored America reposted the Black Student Alliance’s post, um, condemning this event, uh, with the text, ‘pound sand,’ um, to their Instagram story. So there was a little bit of back and forth even after the event between student organizations and Uncensored America.
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Chowdhary: This is a production of The Daily Texan Audio Department. To listen to more podcasts, or check out more coverage of this event, visit thedailytexan.com. That’s t-h-e-d-a-i-l-y-t-e-x-a-n . c-o-m. You can also follow us on Spotify at The Daily Texan Audio.
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